Chapter 9
This chapter offers quite a lot and seems to raise just as
many questions as it answers. We haven’t seen much of either of Milkman’s sisters
until this chapter, but man, they do take over this chapter in a powerful
way. We also learn more about Pilate,
and her ability to both play into stereotypical gender roles and transcend
them.
Please take notes on your assigned character/questions. List at least 2 quotations (short, proper citation format) with
analysis in full sentences. You MAY NOT REPEAT.
Read what everyone else assigned to your group wrote first, then try to
add to what they wrote (with new evidence) or respond to a different question
(with new evidence) for your character. DO NOT try to answer all of the questions.
Females:
Corinthians
Males: Lena
Anyone (guys or
girls) who fits any of the following criteria: Pilate
Is left-handed
Is double-jointed
Listens to Country on a regular basis (at least 3 or more x
a week)
Has visited Kansas (stayed at least one night)
1) Corinthians:
What were her/her parents’ expectations for her life? Why aren’t they working out? Why isn’t she married? What are black, moving-into-middle-class men looking
for in a wife? Any of this remind you of
Death of a Salesman?
How does Corinthians change, first, by working for
Michael-Mary, and second, by taking up with Porter?
Who is Henry Porter (what do we know about him from previous
chapters)?
How did you react to the scene of Corinthians throwing
herself across Porter’s car? Is this the
act of a “doll-baby” or “grown up woman”?
Explain.
Significance /symbolism of the rose petals for
Corinthians?
What are Morrison’s overall messages in Corinthians’ story
about love, about the life of women, about individuality?
2) Pilate:
How does Pilate transform herself in order to get Milkman
and Guitar out of jail? Be specific.
What story does she tell? How
does this act demonstrate her understanding of her society? Is she being weak or strong here? Why?
Milkman says that this whole incident makes him feel
“shame…stuck to his skin” (209-210).
Why? Is this “shame” a step
forward or a step back in his character development? (To what extent is he
ashamed of himself, to what extent is he ashamed of his aunt?)
3) Magdalene called
Lena:
How does Milkman dismiss/disrespect Lena in earlier chapters
and/or leading into their conversation at the end of chapter 9?
Why is Lena angry with Milkman (one specific action, and
then more generally)? What does she mean by “there are all kinds of ways to pee
on people?” (214)
How has sexism and stereotypical gender roles played out in
this family, according to Lena? How does
Milkman’s statement that “I don’t carry no stick; I live and let live” (214)
reveal his fundamental misunderstanding of how these gender roles function?
How is Lena’s attitude toward the roses significant?
What are Morrison’s overall messages about the life of women
and the life of men that she is communicating through Lena’s story?
Corinthians Dead is a well educated, elegant lady who derived from a wealthy household. However, despite her extensive education in France, she became the maid of Michael Mary Graham. This job, despite it being deemed as an embarrassment to her parents, furthermore to herself, refined her in which she was able to gain something she would have never been able to achieve if she had not been a maid. Stooping down to the level of a maid “was good for her” because it enabled her to earn responsibility, as well as maturity. This new found responsibility allowed Corinthians to “flourish in a way, and exchanged arrogance occasionally for confidence.” She felt a “lift which came of having her own money rather than receiving an allowance like a child”; the job enabled Corinthians to truly “grow up” and have a sense of independence.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast to the growth she experienced as a maid, Corinthians’ taking up with Porter retracted her progress. She and Porter had initially started off as friends, however, their relationship deepened and became more intimate. Instead of being proud of Henry Porter, Corinthians “was ashamed of him” and even “hated him a lot for the shame she felt.” This shame, however, was overpowered by the feeling she got in which “she was the sole object of someone’s hunger and satisfaction.” She loved feeling desired by Henry Porter and would go to lengths of throwing herself across his car in order to regain that sense of being wanted. She and Porter had gotten into an argument over when their relationship would be revealed; this led to Porter calling Corinthians a “doll baby,” which greatly enraged her. Corinthians was anything but a doll baby. She was educated, motivated, and eager for independence; however, she yearned for the feeling of being wanted more. Thus, after she had slammed the door on Porter and walked away, she turned back and “rapped on the window” and “rapped again, louder, mindless of who might see her.” Corinthians then “climbed up on the fender and lay full out across the hood of the car” and was determined to “never let go.” She gave up all her pride and independence in exchange for Porter. In this, Corinthians lost all she built over her lifetime in seconds in order to gain that sense of want and belonging that Porter gave her.
Lovely insights Tiara. Is it possible that Porter serves as her categorical rejection of her father's values? If so, then what are we to make of her prostrating herself on the hood of his car?
DeleteMagdalene Dead also known as Lena is the oldest sister in the family, and despite the opportunity to go to college she turns it down to stay home and help her mother (Ruth). Lena is stuck to a life of making fake roses like her sister Corinthians, but Corinthians is able to move on from that, but Lena stays there forever. Although Lena seems submissive at first, she shows her inner strength when she holds a mirror up to Milkman's face, showing him his selfishness. She reminds him of the fact that he peed on her accidentally when he was a little boy, and tells him that he continues to pee on her and on the family. Lena's inner strength enables her to her to resist her father's distorted value system.
ReplyDeleteTo extend Arnold's comment, the reason Lena tells Milkman that he has always "peed of the family b/c in one way or another Milkman is becoming more selfish than what he already is; and Lena illustrates that ever since that event she has letting all her grudge on Milkman and showing him his true self.
DeleteTo go off of what Arnold said, I believe that Lena has never moved on from making fake roses is because she may be scared to move on from her own life. Since Corinthians left her making roses alone, I think she may see it as a burden she has in life instead of just a job. -Eddie Macias
DeleteList at least 2 quotations (short, proper citation format) with analysis in full sentences.
DeleteRemember to connect it to theme as well -- both of you.
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DeleteI agree with Arnold on the fact that Milkman has constantly peed on his family throughout his entire life in which this habit of his has led the relationship with his sisters to be completely centered around hate. Magdalene called Lena confronts Milkman about how he eventually ruined the life of Corinthians after he told Macon about the relationship between Porter and Corinthians. Magdalene called Lena later explains that Corinthians is not the only one who he has ruined the life of in which Ruth and her have also been affected by his ways. She states that Milkman has been "using us, ordering us, and judging us" and this is why it comes as a surprise for her when Milkman actually starts caring about Corinthians. His belief that he has the "right to decide our lives" lets Magdalene called Lena to suggest that he's no better than Macon. That no matter how much Milkman tries to be physically different than his father he's not going to be able to hide the fact that his actions represent an exact image of Macon, a reality he can not escape from.
DeleteThough Corinthians was decent looking, nice, and financially stable, she wasn’t married because she considered to be “too elegant”. Apparently, elegance was equated to educated. Because black men who were moving into the middle class wanted a woman who “could manage “and “wanted wives who would sacrifice themselves and appreciate the hard work and sacrifice of their husbands” she was not considered marriage material due to her prestigious background. Men most likely shied away and felt inferior because of her intellect and her upbringing. I believe that Morrison’s is trying to convey the that women were supposed to be focused on being domestic, rather than education.
ReplyDeleteHow else is this articulated? please extend it to show more direct references to text by (p #)
DeleteMacon and Ruth Dead expected Corinthians to "marry well", and if she didn't marry then at least have an "intelligent and public-spirited" occupation of a teacher or librarian. The reason for the failure of her parents anticipated beliefs was because of Corinthians insufficiency of drive and resistance to sacrifice herself for others. Middle-class men searched for wives who would "sacrifice themselves and appreciate the hard work and sacrifice of their husbands", and that definitely wasn't Corinthians. She was a well educated, elegant young women who studied in France and didn't want to settle for an ambitious yet authoritative middle-age man with kids. She also feared of crossing social class boundaries because she knew her parents wouldn't approve.
ReplyDeleteMore please
DeleteList at least 2 quotations (short, proper citation format) with analysis in full sentences.
DeletePilate goes to the police station to talk the police into letting Milkman and Guitar go. Pilate convinced the officers that the bones were the bones of her late husband, which they weren't actually they were the bones of the man in the cave that her brother killed years back. Pilate says to Milkman after being released that after she left the cave, she saw her papa who told her that "if you take a life, you own it."
ReplyDeleteThis statement to me shows how strong Pilate is unlike her brother she takes responsibility for her actions, she's constantly living a life based on hospitality and generosity which is so different from her brother who tries to fit into the limited societal niches in their day in age. After Pilate explains her reasoning for having bones to Milkman, he awakes the next day to feel ashamed for stealing Pilate's sack and the fact that he had to be searched while in jail to which he says “shame…stuck to his skin” (209-210). This is in fact is a step forward in his development because it shows that unlike his friend Guitar he does have an awareness and conscious of what's wrong and right which will make him less likely to do something like this again.
To go off of what jayla said Pilate can be seen as the moral guide throughout the whole story after she is presented in the book. Pilate who is named after the man that is responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is nothing like him considering that she would never be capable of any kind of harm of another human being. Even though she has shown compassion her whole life and never cruelty she has been shunned and turned away due to what everyone considers a deformity. Pilate is the only character that is already free from the chains of oppression that everyone else has yet to break from.
Delete-Andres Hernandez
List at least 2 quotations (short, proper citation format) with analysis in full sentences.
DeleteAs the eldest child of Macon, Corinthians is expected to achieve great things with her background and education and because of these same reasons, no one wants to marry her. When she meets Henry Porter, her life takes a turn. In the beginning, Corinthians ignore him because she sees herself as superior to him. As their relationship evolves, Corinthians cannot help but pay attention to him which leads her to experience new things such as “feelings of contempt” and “behaved like teen-agers.” However, she is ashamed of him and is confronted by Porter for this reason. As Corinthians walks home, she realizes that she’d rather be with him than let a small fight get in between them. She runs back to Porter and tries to get into the car and “rapped on the window” again and again until she “climbed up on the fender and lay full out across the hood.” Porter comes out and consoles her after pulling her into the car. Corinthians’ action had a big impact on the reader. The actions show how desperate she is to get away from her oppressive family and how she wishes that Porter will take her away. After her night with Porter, Corinthians feels liberated and free from the “smothering death of dry roses.”
ReplyDeletePlease connect this thematically and thereby extending your insight.
DeleteBecause Corinthians has a good educational background, her parents, as well as herself, expect her to achieve greatness and go somewhere in life. Everyone expected her and Magdalena called Lena to marry, but for Corinthians the expectations were exceedingly high “since she’d gone to college”. Her education had opened up hopes for her and other options if she was not to marry, and when “neither of these fates tapped her on the forehead right away, she simply waited”, she could’ve searched but she waited and maybe she thought that the opportunity would just show up since she did grow up wealthy and was used to getting everything quickly. This is mostly why the men she meets don’t seem interested in her because they wanted “their wives to like the climbing, the acquiring, and the work it took to maintain status once it was achieved.” Corinthians already had everything handed to her and therefore was too “elegant”. They also didn’t want wives that were too smart for them, and soon enough Ruth and Macon realized that Lena and Corinthians were never going to marry. Lena gave up, but Corinthians wanted more so she set out looking for a job and even considered getting registering for courses to teach, however the “absolute nakedness of those young faces, drove her out of the building and off the campus like a leaf before a hailstorm.” She came to the conclusions that her education prepared her for nothing and that “colored girls… were in demand for one and only one kind of work… and that she had been doing it for two years.” However this job may be frowned upon, she enjoys it because it gave her a “genuine lift” and she felt independent and more in control of herself than she did in her own house. Then she meets Henry Porter who seems pretty desperate for love. They both start as friends and their relationship becomes intimate though both are embarrassed of each other though neither admit it. She loves the attention and she loves being wanted and needed and she goes from this highly independent girl to someone who is just desperate for someone to need her. Her inner desperations shows up and he facade of being calm and collected fades away. Porter calls her a doll baby to get under her skin, and it does and she immediately throws away her pride when she throws herself across Porter’s car and basically loses all she’s worked so hard to gain. The rose petals are something that’s always been a part of Corinthians life and she let them go in order to do something more. Morrison is trying to put Corinthians in a stereotypical situation where a women gives everything she’s worked for, for some guy, Although it is not always true for every women out there, Corinthians is a great example of someone who wanted more independence and a job than anyone else letting it go for a man. She’s trying to show that sometimes even strong women can be weak if given love.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Do you think C is physically and spiritually empty before she goes to work? What do you make of the relationship with Michael-Mary? To what extent is she Corinthians' double? If so, then what from M-M's life resonates with hers? What might she have seen that would validate her need for a physically satisfying relationship with a man?
DeleteI believe so, because she was always succumbed to her parent's expectations and she "suffered a severe depression" when it finally hit her that she had spent all her years waiting for something to be handed to her rather than being out there doing something with her life. Her work gave her a sense of responsibility, no matter how shameful anyone else would think because it mattered to her. I think the reason that Michael-Mary and Corinthians might have a good relationship is because they are both, in some ways, very similar. For example, Michael-Mary never married or had children and "all had been sacrificed to the Great Agony and her home was a tribute to the fastidiousness of her dedication...".This however, can be seen as quite a difference since Corinthians has a deep desire to feel love and Michael-Mary viewed anything that may keep her from her work as unnecessary, although Michael-Mary was pretty occupied to notice that she may have been missing out on anything.Corinthians may have a job that she feels free and independent in but not necessarily like that on Michael-Mary. Corinthians states that the only reason that she was intrigued by the letter was because "not anyone at all, had made any attempt... to flirt with her in a long time." and when Porter didn't show up two weeks afterward on the bus, she seemed more attracted to him and their "relationship" started.
DeletePilate had "[shrunk]" herself and "whined" to the policeman in order to help Milkman and Guitar get out of trouble. Pilate went on with the lie that Milkman and Guitar made saying that the bones were of her late "lynched" husband. Only Milkman was able to see past the "Aunt Jemima act" and that Pilate was willing to bend her own strength for the nephew she loved. Milkman at first felt "shame at needing his father and aunt to get him off" and that he was felt up by the white policeman, but then that shame transformed. He was ashamed that he was willing "to knock down [the] old black lady" that had taught him so much and done so much for him. Pilate understands that a strong black woman in this era is intimidating and frightening to white men of authority. By undermining herself, she is able to recover the bones, let Milkman be free from jail, but more importantly she was able to push Milkman to become more aware of his actions.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Milkman of concern to Pilate?
DeleteWhat is Morrison trying to tell us about the lives of Women through Pilate and why is it important?
DeletePilate handles the situation to get Guitar and Milkman out with no ease.The religious side of Pilate comes out in this chapter as she plays an old lady. She delivered Milkman from being spiritually disconnected. Which was similar to the biblical Pontius Pilate delivered Jesus to his enemies. She truly showed her religious side as she quotes scriptures from the bible in the police station to explain why she had her “husband's” bones. “...just didn’t have no twelve dollars and fifty cents so she just carried what was of Mr. Solomon (she always called him Mr. Solomon because he was such a dignified colored man) and put him in a sack and kept it with her...” (chap 9, 207). Pilate realized that society is likely to let a religious old woman go under the radar that seems less capable. Pilate says, “So I thought I just as well keep him near me and when I die they can put him in the same hole as me. We’ll raise up to Judgment Day together. Hand in hand” (chap.9, 207). Pilate also talks about her feeling towards her “fake husband”. Pilate added so many details to her “new” persona, that the diction she used make you feel sorry for her. She has put herself down from the strong masculine woman she usually is to a weak and sorrowful lady. She plays an innocent woman who also calls her husband by his last name. The Pilate, in the chapters before, would never step down to someone’s level intentionally to make herself inferior to a man. The new Pilate in the police station would. Pilate knows this is what society accepts women for being feminine and depend on a man. By acting in such way, Pilate would not be questioned because of the role she was playing. Pilate is being brave and strong here because it is going against her morals that she believes in, or doesn’t believe in, “Shame had flooded [Milkman]. He had expected to feel it, but not that kind; to be embarrassed, yes, but not that way. [Pilate] was the one who was ugly, dirty, poor, and drunk. The queer aunt whom his sixth-grade schoolmates teased him about and whom he hated because he felt personally responsible for her ugliness, poverty, her dirt, and her wine.” (chap.2 pg.37) she does it all for her nephew who was ashamed of her because of the lifestyle see lives.
ReplyDeleteMuch is expected from Corinthians considering her education at Bryn Mawr. Corinthians is expected to successfully find marriage after she has attended college. Ruth and Macon hope that both Corinthians and Magdalene called Lena would marry. Corinthians is depicted as “elegant”, pretty, pleasant, and wealthy but not even these attributes are considered by men when looking to marry. Corinthians lacks much more of what men during that time searched for. These men searched for women who would be willing to “sacrifice themselves”, which is contrary to Corinthians person. She was kept apart from others due to her college degree and experience at college. As Corinthians starts working for Michael-Mary as a maid, she is certain she does it to gain some level of independence and “responsibility”, which she did not have at home. The “humiliation of wearing a uniform” did not matter so much at one point because she was working for “her own money”. Working for Michael-Mary proved to be positive for Corinthians but her relationship with Porter forces her to lose some of the confidence gained in the process of becoming independent. At first she is ashamed of Porter but she then eventually “climbs up on the fender and lays full out across the hood of the car”, demonstrating her need to be loved, and need for attention.
ReplyDeleteIs this her need to be loved or her need to be physically validated by his flesh and protected from "a smothering death of dry roses" (199) that she was certain awaited her? If so, then what does this say about the nature of intellectual pursuit without physical or spiritual gratification?
DeleteCorinthians expectations in her life, and what her parents believe she should be living a full and successful life. She believes she should be the educated housewife who has a home that she runs, a family and her dream job to help care for her family. “Her education had taught her how to be an enlightened mother and wife,able to contribute to the civilization -or in her case, the civilizing- of her community. And if marriage was not achieved , there were alternative roles:teachers,librarian or...well, something intelligent and public spirited.”(188) her dreams of becoming anything she wanted all went down the drain because she didn’t really do anything with her degree. Corinthians had extremely high expectations of herself she just wanted everything to fall automatically into place without putting in any work as Milkman. Many men in the time were extremely intimidated by educated women.
ReplyDeleteTry to extend the conversation from above. See my replies and try to answer a couple. Remember, two quotes fully connected to character and theme
Deleteno one has touched these questions about Lena:
ReplyDelete"How have sexism and stereotypical gender roles played out in this family, according to Lena?
How does Milkman’s statement that “I don’t carry no stick; I live and let live” (214) reveal his fundamental misunderstanding of how these gender roles function?
How is Lena’s attitude toward the roses significant?
What are Morrison’s overall messages about the life of women and the life of men that she is communicating through Lena’s story?
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ReplyDeleteWhen Milkman and Guitar were in jail Pilate came to the rescue and bailed them out. Pilate came to the police station to help them and told the police that the bag contained her dead husband's bones. Milkman was upset over Pilate's "Aunt Jemima" interpretation in the police station, which he realizes she put on just to save him. He recalled her willingness to humiliate herself in public in order to provide his freedom (ch.9 pages 212 to 213). She plays the officer by putting on her act to deceive the officer, by trying to be weak and helpless to get what she wanted and seamless of a threat. This goes back to the selfless giving women do in spite of themselves and their dignity for their male counterparts. For instance, Corinthians “Corinthians was almost on her way to becoming an amanuensis after all” indicate her selfless behavior.
ReplyDeleteCorinthians Dead, eldest daughter of Macon and Ruth, a woman with a great education who is expected to be successful. A educated women who would generally be expected to become "a prize for a professional man of color," (pg.188) but if marriage didn't work out “there were alternative roles:teacher, librarian, or… something intelligent and public-spirited.” (pg.188) Ironically, men in her time period wanted wife who would “sacrifice themselves and appreciate the hard work and sacrifice of their husbands.” (pg.188) Men wanted women who would accommodate to what she was given and would give her all: cooking, cleaning, caring for her husband and children. Corinthians was the opposite of that ‘perfect wife’ image, intellectually. She had spent “three years..in college, [and] junior year in France.”(pg.187) An educated women was a threat to men, it would degrade them. Her downfall began when tired of being dependent of her father she got a job as a maid for Michael-Mary. Corinthians a woman of such class and education was mixed in with lower class African american women.Yet that didn't remove her hierarchy in African American society.
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ReplyDeleteCorinthians being the first one in her family to go to college is expected to be a successful woman who will achieve many great things in life. Although Corinthians is well educated and possibly has everything that a woman would want to have , she is not satisfied on how overpowering her parents are with her .She then becomes a maid for Michael Mary Graham(ch.9) and through that experience Corinthians is able to find freedom through her own wages and is able to get away from such depressing family . She was able to escape from her empty life and live one on her own. This proves Corinthians strength and power overall. “Her education taught her how to be an enlightened mother and wife “(ch9pg187) . Corinthians was very unlucky when it came to love . No man wanted to feel inferior to such sophisticated woman like her . “These men wanted wives who could manage “(ch9.pg188) . They wanted what is suppose to be the perfect wife who is supposed to stay home and do all the cleaning and cook . Corinthians was too “elegant” for that and could be more than that .
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